Suzy B Software 2/Suzy B Software CD-ROM 2 (1994).iso/adult_ed/home_sch/home_sch.txt

Text File | 1995-05-02 | 45KB | 942 lines

This information is from GEnie. I have taken the liberty to reformat
the messages and delete a few which are obvious "noise" (not related
to the subject). All messages are in Category 8, Topic 2. Dates range
from Nov. 1988 to Nov. 1989. (Unfortuneately no activity from 12/89
to 5/90).



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Topic 2         Mon Nov 07, 1988
D.MUEHSAM                    at 23:44 EST
Sub: Interested in Home Schooling ?

Is anyone interested in sharing positive and negative experiences
(including materials and methods) ?

39 message(s) total.
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Msg 1  Nov 20, 1988  R.CANANT

Hi!  I was hoping to find home schoolers all over this RT, but alas
... I guess it is pretty new, still. (We just saw it in the GEnie
magazine.) So ... here goes ...

My wife and I have been home schooling our 6 almost 7 year old
officially only a few months, but he, of course, has been learning all
the time.  We are in New York, which just made some specific rules
about home schooling. It's good to know exactly what the local school
district is expecting from you, but home schooling doesn't always
follow specific rules. (Sometimes, it's the rules home schoolers are
trying to avoid!) Lucky for us, out school district was very receptive
to the idea and has been supportive. (Although, since we just got
started, they haven't done anything but say, "It's ok with us." But
that's LOTS better than, What? Are you crazy?")

I just read every message that was on the BB and there was so much
stuff that I'm sure I have forgotten half of what I wanted to say. Here
are a few words about how I feel about educating children.

I think kids will learn much better if THEY decide what they want to
learn. An hour of this, 45 minutes of that may not work very well if
the child wants to spend the next 3 days straight learning about
photography, for instance. Ben, (our 6 year old) wanted to take a
photo-journal of our trip to Niagara Falls. So we spend a couple of
days talking about composition and scaling (the Falls are BIG!) and he
learned alot about taking pictures and responsibility. (He had to take
care of the camera.)

Which brings up another important thing that several people have
touched on already ... Kids will learn and *remember* things that THEY
want to know. If it is important to the child, he WILL learn it and he
WILL remember it! If you decide it's time for math, and the child is
not interested in math (at that particular minute or hour or *week*,
for that matter) THEN you will have to talk about things like
discipline, if you insist that he study math RIGHT NOW! Children love
to learn stuff, and if you just let them, help (NOT 'teach') them,
guide them, expose them to new and potentially fascinating stuff they
won't ever stop learning. In fact, I anticipate the times when we get
to learn something together, since you can't predict where their
interests will take them. (Stop motion animation? What do I know about
stop motion animation? Quite a bit, now that we've explored that
together!) ... Uh ... Am I rambling? Well ... I better stop now ...

I hope to hear from more people out there about home schooling.  What
do you think?

There are some comments in the parent's lounge about parents not
being involved with their childrens' education. Well, home schoolers
are certainly involved!

Looking forward to hearing from you all!

Richard and Tera
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Msg 2  Nov 22, 1988  KOMIX-KID

There are both advantages and disadvantages to Home schooling.   The
advantages are outlined in the previous letter.   One of the
disadvantages is the fact that parents are GENERALLY not teachers.

Admittedly I'm biased, being a teacher, but it seems that while very
few people would think to second-guess their doctor, or lawyer, or even
car mechanic, EVERYBODY thinks they know how to teach children.
Frankly, education is a skill that takes quite a bit of traning and
practice.   There is a lot more to it than just knowing the facts, or
letting a child follow his interests.

There is also the point that a teacher is trained in the subject
areas that are to be taught, far more extensively than most parents.
I teach science and math.   I have a B.S. in Biochemistry, and will
have my master's once I finish writing it.  In New York State, teachers
in a subject area are required to have anywhere from 12-35 credit hours
in that area, depending upon the subject.   In addition, they are
required to have courses in Psychology and Educational methods.
Prospective teachers are required to work either as a student teacher,
or in a private school before they are eligible to be certified.

Finally, the student doesn't gain as much in whatever he is learning
because he has only himself and his parents.   One of the advantages a
student has in learning in school is his peers.  I find that often
another student can explain a concept to his friend when I have run out
of ideas.

Home teaching has a place, but there are definite plusses to having
your child educated by professionals with other students.

 Daniel J. Harkavy
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Msg 3  Nov 22, 1988  J.PARMENTER

AMEN, DANIEL.
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Msg 4  Nov 26, 1988  DAWSON-PHOTO

I am a teacher also (11 year but "home schooling" has an attraction
for me. I learned to be a teacher by being thrown to the wolves.  I was
taught to absorb photography in 1.5 years.  After that I said that I
could do a better job teaching than several teachers I had.  I was
given the chance.  I never took a teaching degree, maybe not as
important in a career program.  But I think that degrees in education
are no assurance that you can relate to the position of "teacher" (what
a loaded word!).  Teaching is a job,  like any job.....and if you
believe that you can't really teach!

 There must be a compromise between "home teaching" which can be very
narrow in it's approach (unknowingly) and mainstream "teaching" which
often becomes a "hearding cattle" approach.  I have degrees also, but
that doesn't automaticaly mean I know what works best.

Bob Marcy  Montreal,
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Msg 5  Nov 26, 1988  R.CANANT

If being taught by a 'professional educator' with other students has
such advantages, why can't Johnny read? And I don't think you should
blame the children. I don't doubt that some kids hate school and don't
want to learn but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't hate school
BECAUSE they are being 'taught' instead of being helped to learn. (They
also have to sit still, be quiet, behave, do what they are told, study
this now and that later -- all of which you HAVE to do when you have 30
kids in one room -- but which can erase a young person's individuality.
If you want to get along in school, be just like everyone else,
right?)

I do not envy teachers, I think they must have a pretty rough time
trying to handle from 20 to 35 students at once and try to help ANY of
them, even if all of them WANTED to learn. Add a few (or more than a
few) who don't want to be there and it must be pretty difficult.

Obviously, I think that it should be the parent's responsibility to
help their children learn; so much so that we take FULL responsibility.
As far as not being able to teach because I don't know the subject
myself, when the child is doing the learning, it becomes much less
important that I have a degree in a subject, as it does that I can help
the child find out what he wants to learn. (There is no reason why we
can't learn some things together.) My personal experience shows me that
many home-schoolers  take MORE advantage of available outside
resources, such as libraries,  YMCA programs, 4H and the like. (I don't
know anything about throwing pottery, but my son does, thanks to the
local school for the performing arts. I don't speak French, so he takes
a class at the YMCA for that.)

I don't think school is 'bad', and I don't think teachers can't
teach. I think that 'professional educators' should be used, just like
a doctor or auto mechanic, when necessary. I don't think teachers
should be used as baby- sitters or for crowd control (get those kids
off the streets!), which is what happens at many schools. (How much of
your class time is spent teaching and how much is spent in
administration?)

Homeschooling isn't right for everybody. It requires a lot of time
and effort, but for some, the advantages are well worth it.

Richard
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Msg 6  Nov 26, 1988  R.CANANT

BTW, as far as kids not learning 'as well' in a homeschool, there
have been a number of homeschooled kids accepted to schools like
Harvard and Princeton, and I'm sure many other good universities. I
don't expect they needed remedial English as Freshmen, (although some
might have, home schoolers aren't perfect, by any means!). If
homeschoolers can be accepted at good schools, I'm not sure that you
can say that they don't learn 'as well' as kids in traditional
schools.

Richard
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Msg 7  Nov 27, 1988   C.WHITE10 [Charlotte]

I am interested to see the reasons why people home school. Before I
   the area where I once lived, I considered home schooling very
closely. It would have abben a problemn for me--I am  teacher.  Somem
schools are less than good learning environments. On the other hand, as
a  public school teache (who obviously is used to a word processor) I
see  kids who are neglcted, abused or otherwise not nurtured by their
parents. I have this year alone 5 girls who are pregnant or new
mothers. They do not have the skills, as far as I can se, to do minimal
parenting-- in some cases, neither do their mothers. I try to allow for
individual expression in my English class through writing, and to share
the ideas other people have had through reading. My background in
English helps, no more than a well read non-college person, but then
the home schoolers I know (my brothe-in-la's family) don't seem all
that well read or knowledgeable, even though both parents have some
college training. I think that a home scool situation must provide the
socialization in some other way that kids get at school: how to get
along with  peope who don't care about you, who may try to take
advantage of you,  or who, though having different ideas, may widen
your horizons. OK, nuff said.
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Msg 8  Feb 04, 1989  PRMARQUIS

Home schooling is the Ideal learning situation for the child and the
parent. What could be better than a tutor with only your best interest
in mind.

Life does not consist of a classroom setting with a group of people
that are all of the same age and mostly don't want to be there. Life's
experiences are interactions between people of widely varied social
economic and age classes. how can we teach children to succeed in life
if we deny them it's experience. Education is preparation. There are
many groups which support Home educ education, the Home School Legal
Defense League is one of the most Important. Christian Life Workshops
conducts seminars nationwide and is extremely helpful. Home schoooling
is a lot of work but the rewards are great.
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Msg 9  Feb 04, 1989  C.WHITE10 [Charlotte]

I know I shoud just skip this topic, but I have to respond. Part of
the  real experience of life is having to deal with people who do not
have your best interests in mind or at heart (the FederalGovernent and
IRS come to mind.)  As a classroom teacher, I acknowledge that I am not
100% THERE for each kid. And neither am I 100% MOM to my own child. But
at least I do not limit her or them to my own limitations, math phobia
for example, nor do I allow them to believe that my way is the only
way. I think parents should teach their children at home in addition to
schooling. The home schooling I have seen looks like the Basic Skills
test studies I have seen. My brother-in-law teaches  his 5 kids at
home, and they are doing well. They are bright kids, and thier parents
are fairly well educated. But they are not learning how to deal with the
system, and I don't think that they will want to stay at home forever.
But then, if you know that your local schools are inadequate, then what
choice do you have?? I would like to hear from people who have reasons
for home schooling beyond "white flight" and religious indoctrination.
Charlotte
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Msg 10  Feb 26, 1989  R.CANANT

There are probably as many reasons why families homeschool as there
are families homeschooling.  My main reason is to instill a love of
learning by allowing our children to follow their own learning style
and timetable (that's not the  same as permissiveness) and to have joy
in living through family life and community contribution.  John Holt
wrote in his book, "Teach Your Own", "...children are by nature...very
curious about the world around them, and very energetic, resourceful,
and competent in exploring it, finding out about it, and mastering it."
 By homeschooling, our children are able to be "independent and
self-directed learners".  We can tailor their curriculum to meet their
needs and interests.

Charlotte-- What you say about having to learn how to deal with the
hard facts of life is true. We do need to know how to respond to people
who don't have our best interests at heart--but at age THREE? or SIX?
or TEN? I want to be sure that my children are well prepared for the
"hard facts of life" because they do exist, but all in good time!  Why
does this type of "wake up and smell the coffee" attitude need to be so
prevalent in our society? It is my conviction that by nurturing and
allowing our children to grow and learn and live life by being exposed
to people of all walks of life, in all stages of life, they will be
well-rounded, well-adjusted, productive people.

Our children are learning how to "deal with the system" in the REAL
world, not in the artificial society that is called "school". We are
law-abiding citizens and adhere to the requirements made of us. By
participating in our lives in a very real and personal way, our
children are learning the ropes. They see us preparing our quarterly
reports to the school district (and participate in their preparation),
see us filing our income tax returns, paying our bills, interacting
with the bank, the grocer, the postman, etc. Isn't this REAL LIFE?

My children are not limited by my limitations. I am not their only
resource.  If I don't know and/or can't find out something my children
want to know, I can direct them to someone who does or can. As their
skills develop, they will be able to get this information for
themselves, and they will be even more independent and self-directed in
their learning.

To find out more about homeschooling and those who do it, you might
consider reading a terrific newsletter that is published by John Holt
Associates called "GROWING WITHOUT SCHOOLING". For a single issue send
$3.50 to 2269 Massachusetts Ave., Cambridge MA. 02140.  Some books I
find to be particularly enlightening are "TEACH YOUR OWN", "THE
UNDER-ACHIEVING SCHOOL", and "INSTEAD OF EDUCATION" written by the late
John Holt.

Tera
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Msg 11  Apr 18, 1989  WALTER

My wife and I (mainly my wife) are home-schooling our 6 year old
daughter. My 11 year old son and 15 year old daughter attend public
school, although my oldest daughter will be attending a private school
next year on a merit scholarship.

We are doing it for a variety of reasons, primarily because our
town's elementary school is severly overcrowded, and do not have the
resources to give a quality education to our youngest.

I would like to praise my wife, who is incidentally certified in NY,
quite comfortable with science and public school math, as well as
writing. (If you can write, you can read).

My daughter can add 6 digit numbers, deal with subtraction, reason
about  odd, even, less- and greater- than, knows the principles behind
multiplication.... She keeps weather log describing temperature, amount
of sunshine... She writes AT LEAST one page a day, and has written and
bound her own children's books... She knows the principles behind
scientific experiments, the importance of controls in comparison
studies, how to eliminate variables, how to keep a lab notebook and
write up: equpment, procedures, materials...

I could go on (the field trips to the mountain, swamps...)but you get
the idea. Quite impossible if she were in the standard pigeon-hole
classroom.

Socialization? We co=operate with other home=schoolers, Brownies,
violin lessons...

The cost? Minimum of 20,000 a year in lost income from my wife!

I am quite sure we could provide a superior education through high
school, but we are currently wrestling with how to compensate for the
1/4 - 1/2 million dollars lost over the 12 years.

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Msg 12  Thu Apr 20, 1989  RJP [Roberta]

One solution may be found in what three homeschooling mothers West of
here came upon.  They combined resources so that there was a rotation
of teaching parents.  They wrote a contract whereby one of them would
assume the teaching responsibility one year out of three.   Not a
solution for everyone, but it seems to be working for them. BTW, have
you looked into on-line experiences?
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Msg 13  Oct 17, 1989  J.ORR4

I am saddened by the apparent inability of many to discuss
homeschooling calmly. My wife and I homeschooled two of our six
children; they are now 25 and 27, and are very well-adjusted. Our older
daughter and her husband are homeschooling their five, who range from
three months to eight years old.

I believe in homeschooling--for those who choose it. And I believe we
should all have the freedom to use the funds we give government for
education as we-- families--see fit.

Moreover, I think we all have much to gain by open communication. I
challenge all who read this to give it a try.

Here's a topic for starters: I believe the family is the best
environment for learning, even if the parents are not trained
teachers. There is a growing body of research that indicates
homeschooled children are better "socialized" by college age than those
who are schooled in age groups. In fact, I submit that the strongest
reason for schooling kids in age groups is simply adult convenience.

What do YOU think? And can you express it without attacking anyone
personally?

Joel
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Msg 14  Oct 18, 1989  JERRYP

  The British upper classes have almost always done what we call home
schooling in the US.  Seems not to have harmed them much. Nannies and
governesses seemed to do a pretty good job for them, and most upper class
English homes have a classroom...

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Msg 15  Oct 19, 1989  RJP

How neat Joel.  I agree that some folks become anxious when
discussing homeschooling.  Many public educators feel threatened by the
very concept, don't you think?

Please share more with us.

How about giving us a taste of the research that you have come
across.  I am eager to be informed.

How about the "strongest reason for schooling kids in age groups is
simply adult convenience"?  The one-room schoolhouse didn't appear to
be a failure, did it?

Hey, I just had an idea.  some folks will say the reason that not
just anyone ought to teach kids is they don't know how.  What if online
training were provided to those who want to home teach?

Comments?
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Msg  18  Feb 04, 1989  PRMARQUIS

There is one topic on this whole board dealing with home schooling
(8,2). That topic has not had any activity since Nov 88. I think that
if there were  a category solely for home schoolers that we could
generate more interest. The uses of the home computer in home education
are great and the benefits of  networking for home schoolers could be
too. Thank You       Paul
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Msg  19  Apr 06, 1989  RJP

Paul, do you belong to any of the Home Schooler organizations?  Where
are you located?  There are a number of conferences scheduled for
Spring according to a new friend who schools six children at home.  We
met at a San Francisco meeting on Computers and Learning in March.
Every time I meet a home schooler parent I am impressed by them.  They
are not only independent but vitally aware and they seem to pass that
along to their students.  My friend Kathy takes her 5 charges on Field
Trips with other Home Schoolers at least once a month.  They don't seem
to lack for peer contact and interaction.  Let me know of any
conferences in your area, please.  Look forward to more of your
postings.  rjp
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Msg  20  Sep 22, 1989  J.REDELFS

My kids are Sara (9), Rebekah (7), and Jack (5) none of which have
ever gone to school except here at home.  We live in Alaska and have
never  been given any trouble by the authorities.  Among my frinds at
church are a local grade school principal and a member of the school
board.  They  are both aware of our situation so we aren't "hiding out"
from the  authorities.  Educators in Alaska just have a "live and let
live"  attitude.

I am a househusband since discovering that my income after deducting
extra taxes and daycare expenses wasn'enough to justify leaving our
children with strangers.  So home schooling adds to my usefulness
around  the hous

Our primary reason for wanting to teach our children at home is
simple: We don't want our children to be slaves to fashion.  I'm not
talking  about clothes here.  I'm talking about the way children in the
public school must all talk the talk, watch the same movies, eat the
same food, seek after the same friends, attend the same sports rallies,
read the  same books, take the same classes, and eouse the same
politics.  In fact, an excellent case can be made for the proposition
that public  school students must all "think" alike or they will not
hit it off with their teachers--which impacts grades--and they will be
unpopular with their peers.  Sure there are smalgroups of students that
don't fit  the accepted mold.  But most of them band together in small
gangs of  misfits that are neither popular or individualistic-nkers,
for example.  Such groups have their own requirements which suppress
individuality.

Ever since we started home schooling, skeptics have worried endlessly
about socialization for our children.  I ask them:  Can a child be
over socialized? Grownups surely can't party to much and still get their
work done.  Why should kids be any different?  And in any case how do
we know that public school children are receiving the optimum amount
and type of socialization?  If socialization is such an important
benefit of public education, shouldn't ther serious studies measuring
the amount and quality or type of socializatiothat children ought to
have.

Finally, you wouldn't believe the depth and quality of relationship I
have with my three kids just because I'm with them virtually all day
long every day.  If I were working forty hours a weeks at some job
outside the home, or if my children were in public school, would we
have the kind of relationship that we do?  Would we be able to spend as
much time together?  The same principle applies between the siblings.
I feel they are developing a deeper friendship because they spend so
much time together and play and study together so much.  It is my hope
that this closeness will continue into adulthood so that they will be
better friends as adults.  Afterall, what are we educating our children
for? Is it just to score higher on SAT's, get into more prestigious
colleges ,earn more money, live in bigger houses, drive newer cars,
etc?  What is  worth to my children if I can instill in them a deeper
love for each  other so that throughout life they will not be so
dependent on the affection and approval of friends.  I think it worth a
great deal,  perhaps more than the three R's.  And how are public
school teachers  supposed to do that?

Finally, let me say this:  I have no arguement with public school
educators.  Many of them are doing a fine job and could give my
children an excellent education.  Many of those who couldn't are
severly restricted by the system within which they work.  But I
wouldn't hesitate for an instant to entrust my children to them if my
kids started to fall behind in their studies.  In the beginning I swore
an oath to myself  that I would not preside over educational failure.
my kids seem to be doing very well.  They study hard for three hours a
day without grumbling or shirking.  They are bound to learn something.

I hope this topic gets more action than it has recently.  I feel I've
helped some with this message.  Maybe somebody would like to reply?
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Msg  21  Sep 22, 1989  NIGHTDIVER [Mel]

I have a cousin who is a follower of an Eastern marcobiotic guru and
who believes schools are fascist instituions. He and his wife got
permission to eductate their kids at home, and last I heard they were
doing fine. I haven't talked to them for a while though. (Oh, I
realized I may be giving a wrong impression. They believe in this
guru's teachings, but they don't live in a community of believers or
anything like that. They follow a relatively normal lifestyle, except
for their diet).
 ------------
Msg  22  Sep 23, 1989  RJP [Roberta]

Sounds to me like Sarah, Rebekah and Jack are in good hands.

I love your points about the bonding between you and the children as
well as between the children.  I fear your picture of the school
socialization is all too common.

Share with us some more how you go about making sure you are covering
the subjects they will need.  How about textbooks?  use any?

My one visit to Alaska impressed me with the laissez faire attitude
in most aspects of life.  Still a frontier people with suitable
thinking.

Do you belong to any of the Home Schooler organizations?  My friends
who are home schooling have exchanges and trips with other home
schoolers.  They visit museums together and skating.  An interesting
social microcosm.

Does U of A accept most home schoolers on basis of testing?  Or do
you know how that works.

BTW the reason one of my former colleagues is homeschooling her six
children is the taxes and daycare expenses.  Just wasn't worth it to
her.

Do you use computers in your school setting?  if so, what software?

Do you grade your kids in the normal sense of the word?  Do you
assign "home work?"

BTW do you know of any longitudinal studies done on home schoolers? I
would love to hear about them.

J.Redelfs, welcome and thanks so much for your fascinating message.

Please jump in here on this topic.  I am delighted on its revival.

Hey, here is one school that isn't going to go on strike? <chuckle>
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Msg  23  Oct 22, 1989  J.ORR4

Roberta, I am looking up that reference and some other data about
homeschoolers. More on that in a couple of days.

My wife, N'omi, is a graduate student at St. John's College; after
her 51st birthday she realized that she WASN'T old, and had a good many
years before her, and now that our six kids are grown and out of the
house, she wanted to do something more than help me in our
CADD/CAM/CAE/CIM consultancy (as president). St. John's is not easy to
get into, but we just met two homeschooled sisters who are
undergraduates there.

It is certainly true that many parents are not academically equipped
to teach specific subjects. That is why there are now more than 120
companies offering homeschool curricula--most of which are designed so
that the parent doesn't have to prepare lesson plans or even thoroughly
grasp the material herself or himself. (Although it is common for
homeschooling parents to respond to this challenge by diving in and
keeping ahead of the kids!)

I know a family of fourteen children in Wisconsin, in which the older
children supervise the younger, under the general guidance of the
parents.

The one-room schoolhouse, by the way, was more like a home school
than a public school, in that there were few children of the same age,
and all the kids were together for many things, even if they were
following different courses.

Here is a question: What is the origin of the single-age classroom
that is now so accepted in our educational system? It is so different
from the family environment, in which younger children have older ones
for role models (in addition to parents).

And another interesting point for beginning homeschoolers: The Home
School Legal Defence Association has gone to court in most states to
defend the families who maintain that the Constitution guarantees them
the right to  educate their own children. They have never lost a case.
You can call them for information at 703/882-3838.

I want to add that, although I strongly support homeschooling as my
preferred form of education for children, I have great respect for
professional teachers. Almost all the ones I know are truly devoted to
children and to teaching; God knows, they are certainly not in it for
the money! That's why I believe there is much to be gained from
constructive dialogue, even if it gets intense; we do share common
goals, though we may disagree about methods.
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Msg  24  Oct 23, 1989  RJP

Thanks for the info on the Home School Legal Defense Association. I
agree heartily that a constructive dialogue is called for reg.
homeschooling.  There are so many misconceptions floating around.

My reading of the US Constitution shows nothing about education.  I
stand ready to be corrected.  Even my Constitutional Law class failed
to show why the Feds are involved in education at all.  The "implied"
power is not clear in providing for the general well-being of the
populous.

comments are welcome.  Are you folks saying I am being deliberately
provocative (grin)?  Well, maybe a little bit. Is this St. John's the
one famous for "Great Books" program?  The one in New Mexico, or???

Look forward to more.BYE
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Msg  25  Oct 22, 1989  J.REDELFS

Some time ago I outlined my primary reasons for homeschooling my
three children who have never gone to school (outside the home).  RJR
asked me a number of questions about curriculum in a repsonse to my
message.  I do not yet have a thorough answer to all of her question,
but I would like to give part of my answer in this short message:

To a large degree I have been inspired by the writings of three
authors. The first is Richard Mitchell of Glasboro State College.  His
book "The Graves of Academe" is at once erudite, outragiously funny and
scathing in its ridicule of those who teach teachers to teach.  He
claims that the practical definition of the word "literacy" has changed
over the last  couple of centuries.  Once it implied "mastery" of
language.  Today it means being able to read labels and job
application forms. He then goes on to make a convincing case for the
proposition that an excellent education can be obtained solely by
reading and writing. He hurries to caution, however, that what one
reads and writes is all important in such an undertaking. I highly
recommend the book to anyone who wants ideas for homeschooling or wants
moral support for having made the decision to do so.

The second author who has blessed my life as a homeschooler is Samuel
Blumenfeld. His book "Alpha-phonics" has enabled me to teach my three
youngsters to read when each of about a half a dozen other methods
failed me.  There are no pictures in the book--none at all.  Most of
the book is just syllables helping the child to pronounce each sound in
the English alphabet as a conditioned reflex.  As a result of this
outstanding text both of my daughters began reading way above grade
level from the age of four. And today at ages seven and nine they
both read faster and with better comprehension than I do--allowing of
course for my greater vocabulary. My five year old son is now reading
well from the primer even though for hormonal reasons it has been a lot
harder to get him to "sit still and be quiet" than either of my
girls.

Finally, Stephen Butler Leacock, the Canadian answer to Mark Twain,
wrote an essay entitled "On the Need for a Quiet College" which I
read in a freshman English class many years ago which has left an
indelible impression on me.  In it he humorously ridicules the idea
that everything can be learned in school. He maintains that much of
what is taught in  an academic setting cannot be properly learned
there.  He refers in some of his writings--I read much of him during
ensuing years--to the  "monster curriculum eating up life."  This man
had post-graduate degrees from the world's most prestigious
universities in such numbers as would fill half a sheet of paper. And
in his old age he felt he had missed out on something important.

One might find it curious that I fail to list the writings of John
Holt in my three item bibliography.  Well, I do give the late Mr. Holt
credit for doing perhaps more than any other one man to popularize
homeschooling in this country.  On the other hand, beyond my agreement
with his idea that every parent has a right to educate his own children
which right supercedes the power of the state, I philosophically have
little in common with him.  He felt that the great crime of the public
schools is that  they teach children to support wars as adults.  I, on
the other hand, feel that the great crime of the public schools is that
the system is designed to force everyone to think alike and become
subject to intellectual fads. And for all his writing, he provided very
little guidance for the parent who craves knowledge of what and how to
teach.  Almost all his writing focused on persuading others of the whys
of homeschooling.  And in my case he was preaching to the converted.
Finally, please forgive the sloppy formatting of my text.  As a new
Genie user, I am not yet comfortable with the editing and formatting
commands. Hopefully, in the future I can write a message such as this
one offline and uploaded it already perfect.
 ------------
Msg 26  Oct 30, 1989  J.ORR4

Roberta, it is the same St. John's with the "Great Books" program;
the original campus is in Annapolis, which N'omi attends. I envy her!
Actually, I participate partially; we get multiple copies of many of
her books, and I read them, too. We're "doing" Descartes' "Discourse on
Method" this week; what fun! And how pertinent his thoughts are today!

It is precisely the silence of the Constitution, understood in the
context of the framers' intent to limit government, that ensures the
right of parents to regulate the education of their children; it comes
under (just got interrupted; to be continued next time :-))
 ------------
Msg 27  Oct 31, 1989  RJP

Descartes' discourse is well worth the effort.  Relative to today, and
yesterday and probably tomorrow!

When I was taking Constitutional law the intent was still relevant to the
Supreme Court.  Do you suppose the lack of study of history leads to the
straying from the Constitution we experience today?

Anyone else care to chime in on this, feel free.

Did you know the Constitution says NOTHING about education?
You might ask yourself then why am I taxed to pay for Federal Aid to same?
Hmmm...

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Msg 28  Nov 04, 1989  J.ORR4

I do indeed ask that question, Roberta (although I pay because I
believe in obeying the law).

I realized a few years ago that throughout my youth I thought that
anything modern was good and that things that happened before I was
born were of little importance. The Constitution and its value, I had
not managed to absorb or appreciate. I think many Americans are in that
boat today; they cannot see beyond relativism and the morals of
expediency. Valuing and honoring the old, the aged, the ancient, runs
contrary to the spirit of consumerism, which needs us to throw out the
old so that we will purchase the new.

Homeschooling gives us an opportunity to pass on values we believe in
to our children, in any form we think appropriate. With it comes a
staggering responsibility, for we know the results will be traceable,
in great measure, to our decisions and actions.
 ------------
Msg 29  Nov 05, 1989  J.REDELFS

Our national leaders continually choose for themselves how they will
interpret the Consititution.  Obviously, they will choose whichever
interpretation gives them the most power to do good as they see the
good.  Unfortunately, the power to do good is also the power to do
evil.

For well over a hundred years, we the people, required our leaders to
interpret the Constitution according to the intent of its original
authors.  Today, most of us don't even vote much less have an opinion
on this subject.

Consider this:  In times past most voters, many of them high school
graduates, read the editorial pages of the nations newspapers and were
informed on the issues of the day including the issue of original
intent in interpreting the Constitution.  They were capable of informed
consent.

Today, most voters, including many holders of a bachelor's degree, do
"not" read the editorial pages.  After nearly two centuries of public
education, they don't possess the necessary reading skills to read the
editorial pages with enjoyment and understanding.  This isn't just
subjective opinion because it can be proven with reading comprehension
test.

How often do we remind ourselves that it is not sufficient to be
"able to read" in the sense of reading labels and job application
forms?  We must read on a much higher level than that if we are going
to govern ourselves in a constitutional republic.
 ------------
Msg 30  Nov 06, 1989  RJP [Bobbi]

Thanks for those timely words.  Tomorrow is election day in many
areas.  Have we done our homework?  In our house we take three dailies
with varied editorials plus there is the news from GEnie. Information
overload sometimes hit but better that than the opposite.

One of the things I stress when I present my reading program is the
transition from the screen to the printed page whether newspapers,
magazines or good old books.  There are four milestones within the
seventy lessons urging the student to go the library or bookstores
because that's where the fun really is.

Was it Thomas Jefferson who said we shall get the government we
deserve?
 ------------
Msg 31  Nov 07, 1989  J.ORR4

Jefferson may have been thinking about an earlier author, who wrote:
"For the transgression of a land, many are the princes thereof..."
--Proverbs 28:2(a).

I have always read this as a warning that "big government" is
national punishment...

Interesting sidelights to the Constitution, in the context of the
rights and obligations of the rulers and the ruled, can be found in a
slim booklet by Frederic Bastiat called "The Law." M. Bastiat found
himself in the French legislature a while back, and realized he needed
to find or invent a gauge for determining what is good law and what is
not. He came up with the following: Government being nothing more than
a deputation of the people, it should have no more than the "natural"
(now there's a word for a few millenia of controversy!) rights of the
individual; he argued that these are the right to life; the right to
liberty; and the right to property. This meant, to Bastiat, that
government had no right to confiscate the goods of some citizens, any
more than citizens had such right.

The fact that families desiring to take upon themselves the respon-
sibility of the education of their own children must, in fact, TAKE
it--rather than simply exercise it--is a reflection of how far we have
gone in the creation of a "parent" who will "take care of us"--our
government. Like Dr. Frankenstein, we have created a monster.

Bobbi, how can I learn more about your reading program? My wife,
N'omi, has an intense interest in reading. After finishing her studies
at St. John's, and before going to law school, she intends to go to
Harvard to get a degree under Jeanne Chall--all this in the interest of
supporting homeschooling.

J. Redelfs, I appreciate your cogent postings. Keep 'em coming,
please!
 ------------
Msg 32  Nov 07, 1989  RJP [Bobbi]

Thanks for bringing up Jeanne Chall.  She was one of my early heros
(read heroines).  Her clear thinking was a breath of fresh air in the
mire called Teacher preparation.

And thanks for bringing up Bastiat.  I can see we read some of the
same things (including Proverbs ;+) )

Homeschooling is a serious undertaking.  Let's face it  most of us
don't want the complete responsibility for the care and feeding of our
own. The one- room schoolhouse which homeschooling is, appears
formidable, indeed.

How many of the rest of you would be willing to take this on in your
homes?

If you would like I can post a screen or two on my reading program.
The Powers that Be here on GEnie have given me the okay (I checked
ahead of time ;.)

Your wife sounds like a very interesting person.  Hope she can come
online soon!!!!

Good luck.
 ------------
Msg 33  Nov 08, 1989  JERRYP

Wow.  I didn't know anyone read Bastiat any more.  I used to assign
his book (which can be read in about an hour) in my political science
classes, but I may have been the only person in the country doing
that.

   I particularly liked his choices:

   The few plunder the many.
   The many plunder the few.
   No one plunders anyone.
   Everyone plunders everyone.

Under a democracy, the last option is the one we drift toward.
 ------------
Msg 34  Nov 11, 1989  W.JONES16

I am pleasantly surprised to find a discussion on home schooling on
GENIE.  My wife and I have been homeschooling our children (10 & 8)
since SEP '88.  It has been remarkable to see their progress. This is
especially true with our 10 year old son, who had just completed his
3rd year of public elementary school. I will upload more, after I get a
chance to read the existing messages.

Oh, yes, I have read Bastiat, also.
 ------------
Msg 35  Nov 11, 1989  RJP [Bobbi]

Great to hear from another home schooler.  Do you belong to a local home
schooler forum?  I have lots more questions <grin>

Join us on Wednesday Night LIVE at 9:30 ET and "bring the kids."
 ------------
Msg 36  Sat Nov 11, 1989  J.REDELFS

I wrote a letter to you, Jerry, a few years ago, asking you which ten
books have most shaped the man you are.  It is an interesting question
that I ask a lot.  You were far too busy at the time to give the
question the time it demands, and your reply--which I was very grateful
for--reflected that reality.

However, I have such a list of ten for the books that have shaped my
life; and The Law by Frederick Bastiat is among them.  It has been the
basis for all my political thinking since I read it in high school back
in the early sixties.

Isn't it curious that homeschoolers gathered in this topic have read
the same obscure work? Interesting.
 ------------
Msg 37  Nov 12, 1989  J.ORR4

The subjects of education and government and economics are so
intertwingled (a wonderful Ted Nelsonism) that many who take on
responsibility for their decisions find they must explore lots of
'obscure' sources. Bastiat stands out for brevity and perspicacity.

Welcome, W. Jones! I would love to hear about your homeschooling
experiences.

Your "ten most influential books" question has me thinking, J.
Redelfs. And although you didn't ask me to, I'll post a list after I
think it through.

Bobbi, take silence as assent from the lurkers here--and post! I'm
sure others are interested, too.

Jerry, I am amazed as all your other fans that you find time to visit
here, and am delighted that you do!
 ------------
Msg 38  Sun Nov 12, 1989  J.REDELFS

Since I brought it up, I'll try to get my list of ten books for
uploading to this topic.  It has long fascinated me how some books seem
to change a person forever.  Perhaps that is why reading is the main
thrust of my homeschooling efforts.  Perhaps the schools can teach
children "how" to read-- although they often fail in that--, but only
parents can teach children "to" read.  It is the love of reading that I
hope to impart in my kids.  If they read well enough, there is little
they cannot learn on their own.

I also find it curious that there are so many whose lives are "not"
much influenced by books; and some of them even have advanced degrees,
etc.

My two favorite questions at a cocktail party, or wherever, are "Have
books much shaped the man/woman you are?  And if so, which ones?
 ------------
Msg 39  Nov 18, 1989  RJP [Bobbi]

I love you party question of "books forming the person you are."

Ever ask a stranger "Read any dreadful books lately?"

 The results can be intriguing.  I did it once at a International Reading
Assocation (the other IRA) party a couple of years back and made two new
friends.
 ------------


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Topic 1         Thu Sep 01, 1988
GEnie